Photo Lesson -

[MisterH112]

A beatifull pic by Dean! I wanted to use this picture to raise a question and discussion. I don't know know who this is, and i'm positive he is a better rider than I am, but I saw something that we could all work on.

Ok - What do we see?
We see that the rider has great lean angle (indicating that he is rider fast)
Head is looking through the turn
right knee is being used as a guide
arms are relaxed

my question is, what is missing? what is he not doing?


http://www.racersphoto.com/img/v8/p882263600-4.jpg (http://www.racersphoto.com/img/v8/p882263600-4.jpg)

[Racers Photo]

That's Tyler Smith. He's another racer with consistently excellent body position.

Its hard to tell from this view, but there isn't a whole lot to improve on. He might be able to decrease his lean angle a bit if he needed to by moving his head and upper body further inside.

Also there seems to be two ways of placing your outer foot on the peg during a corner. Some keep the ball of their foot on the peg, others slide their foot forward to the notch in the sole just ahead of the heel. I've seen top level racers doing both, so I am not sure there is a clear advantage either way.

[TheMans23]

He isnt doing a hello kitty wave for the camera???

[Birdman]

Pretty darn good body position. Photos being just a snippet in time don't tell the whole story (as in this case, what is next?)

If you are going to pick something out I'd say you are going to say that his outside leg in not against the bike to support himself. Over time that increases fatigue, but as I said, not sure if their is a quick transition ahead or not.

[Jasonzilla]

He still COULD BE locked into the tank where he's at, or he could have the pressure on the inside peg. The main thing you're looking for with locking in is to not have pressure on the bars.

If he's putting pressure on the inside peg, a variety of things can go wrong, and some functions will be removed from what he can do. Especially if something happens to rattle the bike, and if he's a newer rider (which he's not BUT) and starts somewhat of a panic, it's just not pretty. I've been there. Before I learned about pivot steering, a "riding coach" out at Firebird told me that's how you're supposed to ride, and I wasted a whole day trying to make it work. It doesn't feel natural. You can't improve, or even work on, picking up the bike from a corner that way either.

If he's locked in and comfortable, how this looks isn't much of an issue. Ultimately you want to have your upper torso low and to the inside, but Matt and I talked about body position (BP) using AMA and WSBK riders BP's this weekend, and it's obvious that to be a great rider and even win championships, there are only a certain few things you must do.

If you have pressure on the bars, any movement you make (shifting side to side picking up the bike, adjusting BP), or is made for you by the bike, go's to the bars and affects steering. No bueno.

[MisterH112]

Birdman and Jasonzilla saw exactly what I saw. The outside knee was not in the tank. Granted, he could have been in transition and photos can't tell the entire story. but i figured it was something we could see.

I have a major problem because I am so damn short, that my outside knee doesn't reach the outside of the tank, it's almost in the middle! lol.

[volcom415]

If you arent crashing then I think its good body position:12:

There are a few donts but it mainly is style points...and I dont see anything wrong with this static image

[volcom415]

Colin must be doing it wrong too:35:

They are gripping the tank just not where you think they are
http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/colin-edwards-motogp-tech3-yamaha-560x401.jpg

[Racers Photo]

Tyler is short, so its not physically possible for him to do what you're suggesting. To lock in his outside knee his butt would have to be fully on the seat.

Here's a view of him from the other side (different corner, but he's very consistent).

http://www.racersphoto.com/img/v6/p469990779-4.jpg

[MisterH112]

My understanding is that there are supposed to be 3 lower body contact points, both of your feet and then the outside knee. I'm sure these two are using the inside of there thigh for the 3rd contact point.

[MaTTMaN]

i do it wrong too! :)

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h278/MyTEC4/IMG_3660.jpg

[Jasonzilla]

My understanding is that there are supposed to be 3 lower body contact points, both of your feet and then the outside knee. I'm sure these two are using the inside of there thigh for the 3rd contact point.

Exactly. I'm not sure what Dean is talking about in his last post, but everyone else is pretty understanding with what's going on.

[MisterH112]

I didn't realize that rear sets can be adjusted that high!:pound:

Yea, i know that's like the pot calling the kettle black.. but i couldn't resist!

i do it wrong too! :)

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h278/MyTEC4/IMG_3660.jpg

[R6Woodsie]

Now that I can afford to get back out on the track, I dont have time for it. Life fuckin blows.

[MisterH112]

^ make time!

http://www.devil-riders.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14927

[MOTOXAZ]

I think I got it but Im pretty lengthy. My problem is I need to get my head and upper body over the side more like Matts. and I stick my knee out too far.
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p33/motoxaz/IMG_4362-1.jpg
http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p33/motoxaz/IMG_4373.jpg

[Jasonzilla]

I watched you while I was following you, Jerad, and you've got good BP. I wouldn't worry about that much more, but if you're trying to improve, find a place on the tank where you'll have the proper BP, and make it a habit. Then you'll be alright. Where you're at on the bottom pic is good, you've just got to lean forward and you'll be over like Matt is.

[MOTOXAZ]

The only thing that still has me wondering a little is when im dragging knee, and this would happen during the long left right after the big wheelie hill about mid course, is that when im dragging knee i feel like im still going wide. I think i need to bring my knee in a little farther or let the ground push my knee in for a little bit more lean angle. I know I am not entering the turn to fast or have too much corner speed so that isnt it. I guess I just have to get used to not putting my knee out as far.

[Mr.Jones]

Hey Jerad, I am far from an expert, hell never even been on the track, but my advice based on the supplied picture: drop your left shoulder. That will put your body further out and place your head more to where you want it.

Like I said, not an expert and probably have no business giving anyone advice, but there's my $0.02 anyway.

[MOTOXAZ]

Ya ive heard that before and have been trying it. thanks for the insight.

[00Silv4.8]

I do it wrong too! Im also about 5' 9" 185-190

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj123/2k4-8/Trackdays/franco-7.jpg
and the rights
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj123/2k4-8/Trackdays/franco-3.jpg
and from the back
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj123/2k4-8/Trackdays/franco-5.jpg

From what I have watched and read on WERA is theres not a DEFINITE way to ride it. Some poke the fuck out of the knee (Jared, you're pretty tall you have reason). and others barely have the knee out, some keep hips pretty close on the seat, etc.
Im by no means super experienced but my rights arent very far off the seat. My lefts are pretty good I think but as long as Im comfortable who cares, just need to keep consistent and not try and exert myself to hit my knee, look at GP. Those guys are FULL LEAN and then just a tiny bit of knee is out. Granted they're FLYING too

[MaTTMaN]

yeah, im not real good at giving advice. johnny, i can come to the track when youre riding and let you know what i think you can improve on.

the way i ride the track is just ride it! do what i feel comfortable and try to not over think it. i just let the bike do what its good at! coming in and out of corner i use no reference points, just feel the bike and know when it feels right to drop it in the corner, give throttle, and exit the corner aggressively. i am no track expert considering ive only done 4 track days. but like i said, my advice to you is, get comfortable and do that. dont worry about speed yet, itll come to you as you ride more!

[tank240b]

nice pics all!!!!

[Jasonzilla]

The only thing that still has me wondering a little is when im dragging knee, and this would happen during the long left right after the big wheelie hill about mid course, is that when im dragging knee i feel like im still going wide. I think i need to bring my knee in a little farther or let the ground push my knee in for a little bit more lean angle. I know I am not entering the turn to fast or have too much corner speed so that isnt it. I guess I just have to get used to not putting my knee out as far.

You're about my height, Jerad, and I can assure you that you've got more lean angle. I do, and am working on that constantly. I have fair BP, and it's good enough that if I were a better rider, could keep up with faster riders with the same BP, and not interfere with the bike as much. That's ultimately what you're trying to do; interfere as little as possible with the bikes performance. Good to hear you've gone beyond the BP, and are looking at other things to improve.

[Jasonzilla]

the way i ride the track is just ride it! do what i feel comfortable and try to not over think it. i just let the bike do what its good at! coming in and out of corner i use no reference points, just feel the bike and know when it feels right to drop it in the corner, give throttle, and exit the corner aggressively.

I'm not a stickler for where I'm getting on the gas or shifting, although I do try to keep consistent, but it's one of the things that are going to make you faster. When we go out in May we'll pick one place for you to work on RP's, TP's, apexes, so you can see the difference. It will give you something to work on and improve. Just going around the track trying to get faster won't build consistency or max out your speed.

A MotoGP rider (and I know you want to race) doing a qualifying lap can ride on a line a foot in width almost consistently lap after lap. That's why they'll put on slicks when every part of the track is wet except the line. Actual racing is different for racing lines, but they're still going to ride off of RP's. We can watch a race that has MotoGP and WSBK riders, and they'll have similar lines.

[00Silv4.8]

yeah, im not real good at giving advice. johnny, i can come to the track when youre riding and let you know what i think you can improve on.

the way i ride the track is just ride it! do what i feel comfortable and try to not over think it. i just let the bike do what its good at! coming in and out of corner i use no reference points, just feel the bike and know when it feels right to drop it in the corner, give throttle, and exit the corner aggressively. i am no track expert considering ive only done 4 track days. but like i said, my advice to you is, get comfortable and do that. dont worry about speed yet, itll come to you as you ride more!

exactly what I said, Get comfortable. I really dont think theres a right and wrong way to do it from what I've heard. No 2 people are the same after all

[MisterH112]

i can use all the advice i can get.. but overall nice pics! i'll post some up too when i get a decent shot.